tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-275768344368542415.post4732755922896992275..comments2023-10-05T11:24:50.821+02:00Comments on Leisha's Random Thoughts & Ponderings: Am I a racist?Leisha Camdenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04768409807832229050noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-275768344368542415.post-55050794728138233992009-09-27T20:41:53.825+02:002009-09-27T20:41:53.825+02:00Was teasing hence the ";P" I never comme...Was teasing hence the ";P" I never comment on what what women wear, as a matter of fact as I keep telling Mrs Paz when asked about a particular outfit I keep saying that nothing looks good on women ;).Pazhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09567652179692699929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-275768344368542415.post-20198925926072783982009-09-27T17:42:06.860+02:002009-09-27T17:42:06.860+02:00Suleman: Thanks for your comments, I really apprec...Suleman: Thanks for your comments, I really appreciate your input. I hope you won't be offended by the following - I don't mean to offend you or anyone else, it's just my honest opinion.<br /><br />I've heard this argument that you bring up many times - mostly from Muslims, but also from others, for instance Christian apologists when on the subject of the murder of doctors at abortion clinics and the like. It always goes like this: Rape or terrorism or whatever has nothing to do with Islam, those people aren't Muslims; the murder of George Tiller has nothing to do with Christianity, that guy who did that wasn't a Christian; etc, etc. It's very much a standard issue argument.<br /><br />I think that that argument is a copout, and a dangerous one at that. What it does - and presumably is designed to do - is to deflect criticism from the religion itself, as well as the 'holy' texts, in order to kill discussion of the negative aspects of Islam, Christianity, Judaism, etc (it doesn't necessarily have to be religions that are involved, this argument 'works' for many ideologies) - negative aspects which are indisputably present. Just ask George Tiller. But the believers won't get into that discussion, and simply dismiss it with this sleight of hand. As I say, a copout.<br /><br />I'm going to have to write a blog post on this, I think, because it is an issue that IMO is very important.<br /><br />Again, I mean no offense to anyone by saying this.<br /><br />Oh, and I did figure that you probably meant to say 'horrendous'. Typing fast can be tricky. ;-)Leisha Camdenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04768409807832229050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-275768344368542415.post-16692553621326282302009-09-27T17:33:05.118+02:002009-09-27T17:33:05.118+02:00Paz: I think I wear pretty normal clothes, but eve...Paz: I think I wear pretty normal clothes, but even if I was dressed incredibly provocatively, that's actually even more to the point: It's no one else's business what I choose to wear, and whatever clothes I have on it doesn't give anyone the right to call me names. Obviously I know that you agree with that, I'm just saying it.<br /><br />I agree with your assessment that certain immigrant insist on sticking to their own customs to a much too high degree. I've seen some immigrants in Sweden on TV recently who really deserve a kick in the teeth and a one-way ticket back to whatever rock they crawled out from under. And another example: An imam here in Norway who was interviewed by a major newspaper and had to have an interpreter with him - he'd lived here for something like 24 years. o_O And he had the fucking nerve to say that he 'wished he was able to speak Norwegian better'. >:-( Almost the worst part was that the journalist didn't call him on this blatant lie. I mean, seriously: If you've lived in Norway for 20+ years, you *don't* 'wish you could speak Norwegian better', because if you did then you would actually speak it better. That guy was a piece of shit liar and that was what the article ought to have been about, not his opinion on whatever. >:-(Leisha Camdenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04768409807832229050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-275768344368542415.post-39462456490888643342009-09-24T21:14:56.579+02:002009-09-24T21:14:56.579+02:00I meant, horrendous acts, :P .. not herrounds, my ...I meant, horrendous acts, :P .. not herrounds, my notepad doesn't have a spell checker. :PSulemannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-275768344368542415.post-4789757497559089632009-09-24T21:13:14.475+02:002009-09-24T21:13:14.475+02:00I'd like to Add one thing tho, Islam has nothi...I'd like to Add one thing tho, Islam has nothing to do with all these rapes. Those who commit are to be punished severely under the islamic law. Clearly, those who commit it does not have any regard of the law, or fear of God for that matter. I am not sure if we could really attribute their herrounds acts to Islam or a special attribute of them being Muslims. However, we can't say it but they're not Muslims when they do this (since they're not following Islam anyway).Sulemannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-275768344368542415.post-14457137925981953172009-09-24T19:24:15.395+02:002009-09-24T19:24:15.395+02:00IMO the problem is that some immigrants do not try...IMO the problem is that some immigrants do not try to adopt any customs of their host, many of them barely follow the laws.<br />I won't start on why they might be calling you whore, what the hell do you wear going around town ;PPazhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09567652179692699929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-275768344368542415.post-75606128704696623602009-09-24T15:41:57.890+02:002009-09-24T15:41:57.890+02:00lol @ the BNP!! What's the problem exactly - t...lol @ the BNP!! What's the problem exactly - that they have no non-white members or that they don't allow them? If the first: What will happen if they can't find anyone of the right ethnicities who are willing to join the party?? Will they be penalized?? :-D Political correctness gone amok ... !!<br /><br />The thing is that even if the truth hurts, it's still the truth. It's dangerous for our societies if the truth becomes suppressed.<br /><br />Shiva, yes, evolution has made xenophobes of us all. I don't think that that is automatically a bad thing. It is a problem here in Norway though that genuine debate on the problems that immigration does lead to is so skewed and malfunctioning, because people are afraid of being labelled as racists.<br /><br />Every single random stranger on the street who has ever called me a whore has been an immigrant from the Middle/Near East or Africa. I can't complain about that, though, without some groups jumping on it as evidence of racism. But when an African calls me a Norwegian whore, isn't that racism just as much? I'd say so. Yet we're not debating that. I think that's the main problem. Anti-racism, at least in Norway, empties the term 'racism' of its meaning and destroys the debate.Leisha Camdenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04768409807832229050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-275768344368542415.post-42546079942950846182009-09-24T10:57:22.765+02:002009-09-24T10:57:22.765+02:00When you look at the statistics just for Oslo, I a...When you look at the statistics just for Oslo, I agree -- there actually are crimes which were committed a couple of more times by immigrants: for instance robbery/blackmail and customs-related offenses. Rape goes under the same label as other violent crimes, so you can't really make much of that from my numbers. <br /><br />I think this has more to do with fear and xenophobia than racism. People are for example usually only worried about men, and particularily groups of men. If they're non-western-looking <i>and</i> hanging out on a street corner at night, that's even worse. <br /><br />But I still can't see that there's any reason for regular norwegians to fear being raped by immigrants, because non-westerners also mostly tend to be the victims, so I don't think the odds have changed that much. There might be newer statistics, though, and I know Oslo is special.Madshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16722845633783649966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-275768344368542415.post-17763539087882431492009-09-24T09:35:55.100+02:002009-09-24T09:35:55.100+02:00one exception is those moron creationists, god mad...one exception is those moron creationists, god made their brain the way it is ;PPazhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09567652179692699929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-275768344368542415.post-68172465169755064622009-09-24T08:42:14.133+02:002009-09-24T08:42:14.133+02:00Evolution has formed your brain to think that way ...Evolution has formed your brain to think that way ;)Shivahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15216174958112635100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-275768344368542415.post-40486802383572779412009-09-24T02:38:25.928+02:002009-09-24T02:38:25.928+02:00Forgot this lunacy, its too funny IMO. The BNP in ...Forgot this lunacy, its too funny IMO. The BNP in England were told they have to accept ethnic members, “This exclusion is contrary to the Race Relations Act which the party is legally obliged to comply with. The Commission therefore thinks that the BNP may have acted, and be acting, illegally.”<br />They have a timeframe to provide a written undertaking to the Equality and Human Rights CommissionPazhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09567652179692699929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-275768344368542415.post-80877373295978222992009-09-24T01:53:19.641+02:002009-09-24T01:53:19.641+02:00IMO political correctness makes us afraid to speak...IMO political correctness makes us afraid to speak the truth sometimes, a lot of truth's can be taken as prejudiced or racist. <br />Me I will happily admit to being a bigot ;)Pazhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09567652179692699929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-275768344368542415.post-13430680839098196912009-09-24T01:19:53.213+02:002009-09-24T01:19:53.213+02:00Paz: Yes, women are more likely to be raped by som...Paz: Yes, women are more likely to be raped by someone know to them. That's definitely the case. But immigrant women are raped too ... at least as much as ethnically Norwegian women. We don't hear as much about it because they have less access to the community than Norwegians do. But statistically speaking it must be happening. I really don't like the numbers I get when I add these things up.<br /><br />If everything is potentially racist, and we can't say things that are true because that is also racist, then won't we come to a point where the whole concept of racism will lose its meaning ... ?Leisha Camdenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04768409807832229050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-275768344368542415.post-22703079329742463222009-09-24T01:15:39.081+02:002009-09-24T01:15:39.081+02:00Mads: re the Norway Cup incident, I never seriousl...Mads: re the Norway Cup incident, I never seriously considered that the team in question could be a visiting team from abroad. Those teams don't make trouble like that. I was sure from the first that it was a team that was 'from here' on some level. If that makes sense. :-)<br /><br />Statistically speaking it was likely to be one of the African teams, but I never thought that it was. And sure enough ...<br /><br />Does the media really have a tendency of concealing the ethnicity of Norwegians? I don't think so ... they'll mention it when the perp was an immigrant of whatever generation, so if they don't mention anything about the ethnicity, it's very often safe to assume that it was a Norwegian. :-)<br /><br />'There is no single type of crime that is mostly done by immigrants' ... hmm. My cousin quit his job because it was making him a racist. He worked undercover for the drugs division at Oslo PD. He said that it made him a racist in his heart, although he still wasn't a racist in his head ... intellectually he knew that the vast majority of immigrants are lawabiding citizens who read the paper after dinner and help their kids with their homework, but his problem was that he never saw any of that. He saw the world of drugs. And according to him, it was all immigrants. Nary a Norwegian to be seen. So he started to get so many negative thoughts and feelings about certain groups ... he ended up quitting that job because he felt it was messing him up too much. So based on my admittedly limited inside information, I'll say that drugs trafficking and sales are crimes mostly committed by immigrants. I think statistics back me up on that, actually.<br /><br />I'm sure you're aware of the scary number the Oslo police published ... this spring, was it? Every reported 'assault rape' for the past 3 years were committed by immigrants. So then the standard defense is that most rapes aren't of the assault type, they're committed in people's homes and so on ... but if you're the sort of person who'll rape someone in public, you'll obviously have a much lower threshold when it comes to raping people behind closed doors as well. So ... you do the math.<br /><br />The number in the last paragraph makes a lot of people, or I may say women, sceptical of immigrants. But, like Paz says, that's something you can't really talk about because that makes you a racist. Reality bites. :-(Leisha Camdenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04768409807832229050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-275768344368542415.post-34802464297694239102009-09-24T00:58:39.086+02:002009-09-24T00:58:39.086+02:00BTW I am not saying that immigrants are rapists. I...BTW I am not saying that immigrants are rapists. I do know that in western societies, women are more likely to be raped by someone known to them.<br />I just wanted to highlight that anything has the potential to be racist and often the truth is racist.Pazhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09567652179692699929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-275768344368542415.post-62820258391604458372009-09-24T00:52:32.831+02:002009-09-24T00:52:32.831+02:00If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck and qua...If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it probably seems absofuckinglutely obvious what it is, but because someone might be offended you cant say it.<br />Its racist to say that Irish like a drink, Asians are good at maths and engineering, Women are hopeless reading maps, Men can't multitask and Galway men make fantastic lovers the overwhelming evidence seems to say yes, but you can't say it, its either racist or sexist.Pazhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09567652179692699929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-275768344368542415.post-88408229152395460352009-09-24T00:52:32.116+02:002009-09-24T00:52:32.116+02:00You're right that it sometimes seems as if you...You're right that it sometimes seems as if you can guess in advance which crimes were done by immigrants, but my only source for that kind of anecdotal information comes from the media, so even if it were right that I could guess it most of the time, I still won't know if it's representative of anything. They have a tendency towards not telling when things are done by ethnic norwegians. <br /><br />I also thought the same as you when I heard of the Norway Cup incident, but I already knew that there are a lot of African teams in the tournament, so there was a quite high statistical probability for it being one of them as well. Besides -- they weren't immigrants, only black. That being said there are probably a lot of better examples to find. <br /><br />Anyway, it still is not racist to feel that most violent/sexual crimes are committed by immigrants. But it is absurd, though. When you look at the numbers, there is no single type of crime that is mostly done by immigrants. About gang rapes, I can't really remember hearing about that many of them done by <i>anyone</i> lately, although a couple of horrible cases done by duos of ethnic norwegians spring to mind. But perhaps that's just it. Maybe the impression comes from the fact that the media have a higher threshold when it comes to reporting violent/sexual crimes done between ethnic norwegians, I don't know.Madshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16722845633783649966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-275768344368542415.post-81379574519077519142009-09-23T23:44:20.644+02:002009-09-23T23:44:20.644+02:00You're right, being an immigrant in Norway and...You're right, being an immigrant in Norway and being a black American is absolutely nowhere near the same thing.<br /><br />Anyway. You make some good points. I know about statistics and so on. But then again, there's violent crime and there's violent crime, right? If we hear about a woman being raped, then the perp could be anyone. Pretty much anyone. But you know what, I've never heard of anyone being gang raped by ethnic Norwegians. (Gang in this case meaning three or more assailants.) I've never heard of that happening. Have you?<br /><br />The thing is that with certain types of crime you can usually guess who's behind it. Someone embezzled money from his employer? Ethnic Norwegian nine times out of ten ... at least. Gang rape? Immigrants. The paradox I'm trying to get at in my post is that a lot of people would probably consider me a racist because I have gut instincts like these ... and racism is definitely a problem ...<br />but when it turns out that I'm right, then where does the problem lie?<br /><br />Thanks for commenting, I really appreciate your input! :-)Leisha Camdenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04768409807832229050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-275768344368542415.post-66049202626920653502009-09-23T23:36:21.263+02:002009-09-23T23:36:21.263+02:00I had the same thought upon learning that about 42...I had the same thought upon learning that about 42% (i think that was the figure) of people on death row in the USA are black, whereas they only make up about 13% of the population. But of course being an immigrant and being black is not the same thing, even in Norway. <br /><br />For Norway the statistics seem to show that non-western immgrants are about twice as likely to commit crimes as the general population. SSB has a report on this, which can be found here:<br /><br />http://www.ssb.no/emner/03/05/rapp_200018/rapp_200018.pdf<br /><br />(see for instance p. 35)<br /><br />Of course there are very few non-westerners compared to norwegians, so it shouldn't make a very significant difference, but there might be a bias towards non-western immigrants, particularily in the media, that reinforces the sense that they are doing most of the violent crimes, which they in reality are not.Madshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16722845633783649966noreply@blogger.com